A general poll - for chicks mostly

[jeanvieve]

Okay gals. This is a litmus test of a concept I mulled over for years. It was sourced in things like my mother always being the one to flush the goldfish, hold us when we sobbed over the dead cats, our first school day crushes that were crushed in turn by life and circumstances. And perhaps it is a stereotype, of woman the caregiver.

It deals with generalities. I expect you all will know shining exceptions to the rule, stay home daddies etc. But:

Do you, in your heart and mind and based on experiences you personally have, believe that men as a general rule are emotional cowards?

Not physical, not how well they dare to face bombs and bullets and will race to the building to pull out the screaming baby. I have nothing but deep respect and admiration for the bravery of the male race, when it is their life on the line.

But when it is their feelings? Or the feelings/tears of others?

Lay it on me. Have men grown bold and modern, capable of dealing with death and pain and sorrow while I wasn't looking? I wait upon your words to determine if I should review my convictions.

Comments

speculation

[seussgirl27.livejournal.com]

I will chance the inserted foot here and say, in the general sense, men have always been emotional creatures. The mystery of exposure, is where women are muddled by confusing actions, verbal rantings, and silent trances.

Men are conditioned to process death, pain, sorrow by extrinsic factors much more than women. They react appropriately when challenged by war, loss of a loved one, exploration of concepts foreign to their beliefs. Although they feel emotions in all circumstances, don't men tend to need to solve a problem? How can I fix this?

Women tend to find intrinsic views and values to express our deepest struggles, in turn triggered by external cues. We just need someone to listen, to commiserate, to understand and comfort without proposing any solutions. Just let us feel!

Ever felt like breaking into a fit of rage or felt like you might become a sobbing banshee over your man, who for the first time EVER has decided to let the exterior break a wee bit and shed a tear? We need them "strong" moreso than we need them "showing" emotion. The big lugs are not unemotional, just inept at coping with our reactions when they do give us a shred of evidence to the former.

In terms of a one sided love-affair...

If we label a man "emotionally unavailable" for example, I think it's more our inability to accept their station. If they cannot give what WE want, need, desire...it's not that they are incapable, rather we are not the one aligned to receive their affection. Not to say we won't ever be, but they have to see it in themselves, first.

I subscribe to the "emotionally unavailable" club when men or women appear clueless in my attentions or intentions, because it's easier for me to cope with the emotions it forces upon me. Who wants to feel rejected when what you're offering is unconditional love, commitment, friendship,(insert whatever fits).

However, not being a man, I can only assume what really happens when emotions get involved. As a woman I try to listen to intuition and let life experience help with the rest.

Re: speculation

[jeanvieve.livejournal.com]

Weirdly I've known more than one guy that was perfectly capable of bursting into tears. Only those that did so did it a LOT. Like, broken in the other direction.

And yet, those that cried were all still focused inward. Confronted with the grief and pain of others, they still ran away at least mentally.

[answers-within.livejournal.com]

I have generally found that men still have more trouble coping with emotion, theirs and others', than women...but not by much, and I truly wouldn't call most of them cowards. To me that implies an expectation of emotional proficiency that frankly I just don't think most of them have ever been given, so I don't really expect it of them unless they've been around me for a good long time. Dealing with emotion skillfully and with compassion is a *learned skill*, and there are precious few places to learn it.

Really, though, I find that MOST people have difficulty with emotion. I know just as many women as men who stubbornly go "LALALALALALICAN'THEARYOU" in the face of their own difficult feelings, or who change the subject or stop returning calls when someone close to them is having difficult feelings. I know just as many women as men who, if they can stand to listen to the difficult feelings, immediately need to "fix" what's causing them, and get impatient and angry if the person on the receiving end doesn't immediately follow their advice. I certainly know just as many women as men who are incapable of really listening to anything about anyone else, and will steer the topic towards themselves with every breath, so that only their complaints and gossip are focused on, and nothing of substance in themselves or anyone else.

In terms of your example of a mother's reactions, I do think it's easier for most people to cope with a child's emotions than another adult's. Among other things, when dealing with another adult's emotions it tends to point us back at our own stuff we don't want to look at, while most kids' stuff seems "simple" and less triggering - they're very different classes of issues.

I do agree that we have an extremely powerful cultural expectation that a mother will "nurture" in that stereotypical "feminine" fashion, and I do think most mothers are programmed with that expectation and try to live up to it (where we don't have the same expectation of fathers), but many of them fail. My mother was and is quite impatient and intellectual, with very little patience for emotions - her first reaction to feelings is to come up with an intellectual reason why one shouldn't feel that way. I see this in a lot of my friends who are mothers too, so I know it's not just my mom I'm projecting on everyone. Now, granted, my dad was like that too, and I still think men are more prone to be that way in the face of feeling, but I think it's more widespread on both sides than we might think.

Dunno if that really addresses your question, but that's my shilling. :-)

[jeanvieve.livejournal.com]

It's a fine shilling, thanks! Good points.

[balutakat.livejournal.com]

I've given more than a little thought to the subject, myself. I want desperately to be able to solve this puzzle through a rational, logical means, to say Scientific Evidence Proves: Men's Emotional Depth -- Ain't Much To Analyze. I've decided that the real question (for me) is not whether men are emotional cowards, but why I care if they are or not. Do I give up my sense of control and power in the face of cold reason - am I afraid of unfeeling or emotionally unavailable men? More so than unfeeling or emotionally unavailable women? Do I suspect them of unethical behavior (never mind how irrational that sounds for the moment) simply because they are indifferent? I do. In fact, I strongly suspect and am repulsed by what I see as manipulative and calculating behavior in the part of these "cowards" who pretend they don't care or feel, or who flatly refuse to share.

This leads me back to me (well, introspection often does). What difference does it make to me if people I love and care for act in ways that disturb me? (This seems obvious, but analyzing it helps me cope better.) I don't have one answer for the question. It does make a difference, in the way I act and think not only about the person in question but sometimes in the way I treat myself or think of me. Perhaps it is at the heart of those "Be the change you want to see" mantras. Why am I so let down and angry, why do I perceive "cowards" as cunning and tricky and perfectly aware of how they affect me? Because they undo and unmask me, expose me in moments of crisis, let me down, make me regret who I am and devalue what I have to offer. This is now an issue of trust in myself to make good decisions about who to give my heart, not about who they "really" are.

Thanks for reading me rantie. It's not an answer, but at least you know we think about similar issues. I love to see how you ponder the Big Questions.

[jeanvieve.livejournal.com]

I like to pull out all my stereotypes now and again and give them a good shaking and airing to see if they still fit. Like my closet, I suppose.

I really like your phrase 'do they devalue what I have to offer', though I think I use it more widely. But I have some specific memories. It could be that I have managed to through coincidence or self destructive tendencies involve myself with men that are not emotionally brave. The words of all you ladies make me stop and ponder how much is me and projection vs them.

I don't know that I expect bravery. I read my cheesy paranormal romance novels, and scoff every time the hero's gaze lights for the first time upon the heroine and he realizes that instant she's the only one for him. But I've felt it. And very few guys I know have confessed similarly. (Those that have confessed such things could be what renews my own faith and courage. I want one!)

Worst story ever, having one male friend tell my boyfriend "You're hurting Jeannie's feelings you know," only to have the other one say "Damn it! Why did you tell me that? Now I have to do something." To me, that's my perception of the cowardly part. The one that doesn't face the logical consequences of their actions, avoiding them. But I guess we all do that somewhat.

Is it conscience that I'm confusing with cowardice? Not that anyone might lack it, but is it more or less than average to find more people that don't choose to look at the repercussions of their actions. Heck, my mom doesn't and I love her to pieces.

I just know way more guys than gals for whom I have to shrug off their harmful behavior/words and say "It's just X." Maybe Lyonette is right - is this not taught properly? How does one teach it, this unflinching way of looking at oneself and one's actions and accepting all that comes of what we say and do? And of what others say and do?

Is this a question with an ending? I'm reduced to rambling. It's been a long day at work. Another coworker chick having an emotional reaction to her boss, with whom I work just fine. I'm impatient with her for just emoting, and not thinking of solutions. I do see it as wallowing somewhat, when she's singing the same tune now as months ago. This could be unrelated. :-)

[balutakat.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that I will plan for virtually every possible disaster and reaction that I can imagine to the point of paranoia, but frequently only plan for logical reactions and not "illogical" or emotional ones and freak out when they happen because I have no plan for them. Maybe that's the glitch? I've learned to plan for logical men, but not for emotional ones? Lukewarm emotional reactions can throw me much worse than nasty logical ones.

I do think women are better at learned emotional behavior. Maybe too good at it (you can bend us like a vine and we just keep growing in that direction, right?) in a way. I think of men as getting like bonsai, every time they get a nip they stunt themselves a little more. heh.

[balutakat.livejournal.com]

Oh and I don't know about that self-torture bit - I've always loved the challenge of getting a Stone Man gaga over me, even though those relationships were completely boring and doomed in the long run (made for yummy sexy stuff). Isn't that normal (HA HA)!

YES

[d-mon-chick.livejournal.com]

Just spend those moments with my husband and you will see.

Re: YES

[jeanvieve.livejournal.com]

Oo, short and sweet. So you're on the 'men are not emotionally brave' hm? Nature vs nurture?

[otteringabout.livejournal.com]

Being married to a shining exception who comes from a long line of shining exceptions, not to mention being a rather dull exception from the flip side of the coin myself, perhaps I am too biased to address this question objectively enough for your purposes.

However, it seems to me one cannot separate the question from the asker.

In other words, *I* find men as a whole to be rather open and available emotionally; YMMV. I find that they decipher and respond to my emotional needs rather accurately; YMMV. And, for my needs, I find them emotionally supportive and perceptive; YMMV wildly.

Few (say, next to none) of the men with whom I have cared to venture into the rocky waters of emotional subjects have abandoned ship midway through the conversation, and men are frequently the first to notice when I'm dealing with emotional baggage, and help the most by offering solutions first.

Conversely, I find it very difficult to relate to many women on an emotional level. I have met many who crumble or react completely unpredictably in the face of emotional trials in a way that renders them unavailable (emotionally cowardly) to me. (Perhaps this is a background thing: my mom was not very likely to recognize / talk about emotions. She was very results oriented.)

Often, instead of solutions, many women offer more sentiment, which is usually not what I am looking for when I am at my sentimentally most challenged. Clearly, you (and prolly no more than a handful of others) are a shining exception to my belief that "I have a hard time with being emotionally supported /accepted by women," but by observation, it is also clear that this belief does not hold for every woman.

So, perhaps I'm a complete anomaly, or perhaps the perception of emotional availability/ bravery varies widely based on the perceiver.

And like good labour and delivery stories, the "it was all over in 20 minutes with no complications" incidents don't get very much airtime.